Writing on Crip Time
Transcript cleaned by Raquel Escobar
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Remi Yergeau: [00:00:00] Chance to hear about and learn about today's speakers. So I'm now going to introduce our speakers, beginning with Nirmala Erevelles, who is professor of social and cultural studies in education at the University of Alabama. Her teaching and research interests lie in the areas of disability studies, critical race theory, transnational feminism, sociology of education, and post colonial studies.

Erevelles uses a materialist intersectional analysis to foreground the dialectical relationships between disability and race, class, gender, and sexuality, and its brutal implications for disabled students in U. S. public schools and disabled citizens in transnational contexts. Also with us today is Anna Hinton, who is an [00:01:00] Assistant Professor of Disability Studies and Black Literature and Culture in the English Department at the University of North Texas.

She is also Public Relations Director for the College Language Association, CLA, an organization founded in 1937 by a group of Black scholars and educators of English and World Languages, and a member of the Committee for Persons with Disabilities for the City of Denton, Texas. She has published about disability in regard to constructions of Black motherhood, masculinity, and hip hop, spaces of incarceration, reproductive justice in literature, and African and Afro diasporic spiritual practice as technology. She is a disabled queer mama, black feminist, who loves music, loves dance. Loves the moon, loves the [00:02:00] spirit, loves love and food and roundness, loves struggle, loves the folk, and striving to loves herself regardless.

Also speaking is Crystal Yin Lie, an assistant professor of comparative world literature at California State University, Long Beach, where she teaches courses on literature and medicine, health humanities, and comics and graphic narratives. She earned her B. A. from U. C. L. A. and her Ph. D. in English language and literature with a certificate in science, technology, and society from the University of Michigan.

Her main areas of research span disability studies and contemporary literature and life writing, particularly narratives of dementia and the memory of historical [00:03:00] trauma. She also writes about graphic narratives and has forthcoming publications on comics and disability in the context of Black Lives Matter, chronic illness representation, and the lives of sideshow performers.

Outside of academia, she is an avid climber, live music enthusiast, and parent to two giant Bernadoodles.

And we also have Vyshali Manivannan, who is joining us as an assistant professor and director of the Pleasantville Writing Enhanced Courses Program, Department of Writing and Cultural Studies at Pace University, Pleasantville. She is an alum to Mill American Writer. educator and creative critical scholar with chronic pain and fatigue.

Her work focuses on discourses around chronic pain and fatigue, intergenerational trauma stemming [00:04:00] from the Tamil genocide and somatization, Euro Western ocular centrism, and developing a non Western pained poetics. Her work has appeared in journals like Spark, Fourth Genre, The Journal of Multimodal Rhetorics, and Digital Health, and she recently co edited two special issues on care work and writing during COVID for The Journal of Multimodal Rhetorics.

She holds a Ph. D. in communication, information, and media from Rutgers University and an MFA in fiction writing from Columbia University. So, hopefully we can give a round of flip flops for our speakers today. So I am now going to hand the baton over to David Adelman. The way that we are structuring today's conversation is beginning by asking each of our panelists questions for [00:05:00] response, and then we will pause and shift the conversation to those of you who are joining the webinar and see what questions you have as well.

So, David, if, if you wouldn't mind, I can leave the slide on the screen as well, so that it's visible with the question for everyone. 

David Adelman: Thank you very much, Remi, and it is a pleasure to be here with you all. So our first question addresses the question of crip time directly. And so collectively, we invite the panel to think about the practice of crip time in your work.

For example, activism, scholarship, creative work, teaching, or community care. What are some ways of thinking about crip time that have guided your collective practices? I very much.

Nirmala Erevelles: [00:06:00] start the conversation, and I was the most nervous about wanting to start this, but I will. Though it was okay to also have some of that time for us to just be In the space of the question. So I'm Nirmala Erevelles speaking just because for, I'm just naming, renaming myself for access purposes. And, I think most for me, Crip time, I would not have identified as a disabled person several, maybe say 10 years ago, but at this point in my life, I can say that I feel that I am now in the space where I have got to understand Crip time in more intimate ways, both for myself, but also for the [00:07:00] students that I teach. And one of the things about crip time is, I wanted to speak it out here, was that it was, I want to also define it as not something, but this is where the intersectional argument becomes very particular, that when we think of crip time, it doesn't necessarily have to associate Only with body minds that identify in some ways with disability.

Crip time also impacts a lot of body minds that are considered in many ways, not fitting the dominant paradigm of productive citizen. And this is where it has, it has in some ways these kinds of implications. In the context of race, gender, age, gender identities, and then also sexual identities, so that it moves across and definitely most critically class, and it moves [00:08:00] across those kinds of parameters in ways that should make us really sit and think about the concept of what we've, we've constituted as gender identity.

Productive, successful, creative citizens. So, so this has been the kind of definition of crip time that I will argue now shapes my scholarship some in some ways my activism, but a lot of times also in my teaching, because as a faculty member in a in a in a university which. Is a state university, so we don't have any kinds of like, like, a majority of my students are fresh 1st generation and what you would call non traditional students.

Many of them who come from spaces that are not highly. Quote, unquote, like places where they've been well trained to succeed in the kind of, in the academy that values so much of, which is so very elitist in a lot of ways. [00:09:00] crip time, like this notion that when Ellen Samuels had like constituted a long time ago, and when I started thinking about it, it applies so powerfully to my students.

And to myself in the ways we negotiate, and we find ways to value ourselves, notwithstanding the kinds of demands that the academy requires us to perform. It's how active, how many publications do you have? How, how do you manage your time so effectively to get all these fantastic awards? What does it mean for you to say and admit that you have to struggle with doing to struggle in many ways and trying to articulate a sense of who you are in an academy that doesn't have time to be patient about you.

So I'm just going to stop here because that's I just wanted to. I think because I know my panelists will have more, more things to say and I'll just pass the baton on who wants [00:10:00] to whoever wants.

Anna LaQuawn Hinton: Thank you for breaking the ice. Oh, yeah, this is a question as I prepared for this panel that I kept sitting with it's so pressing in my life right now I'm mid career. It's time for our annual reviews and hire. And so we're like, we've got to put down all the things we achieved. And I've had this past year a shift in my experience of CripTime.

Initially, I've always identified as having mental disabilities or being neurodivergent. Since the pandemic, there's a different kind of sickness and dealing with transition and change and how that also changes [00:11:00] experience of time and identify so much of with what you what you said about students and how to explain, but also how to make my use of time legible in many ways.

I can see how putting together my CV would almost give the image of occupying some kind of normative time and space, even which is disjointed when you try to advocate in university spaces for the fact that we are in in many ways. Living in a shared crip time as, [INAUDIBLE] and others have articulated in terms of the covert 19 pandemic, but it's like, also I've gotten all this done.

And so what comes to the fore, as I think about my crip time practices. Other following and I'll leave this as a way to kind of leave space for others. One, the ways that race really [00:12:00] inform my crip time practice. I'm very much always aware that Du Boisian double consciousness that crip time.

Even as it's, it's being factored into our day to day interactions into the pandemic is always going to be interpreted as CP time, colored folks time for me and is measured and evaluated differently. Right? And then also in the ways that that the measurements of our productivity can also make it seem like a magical Negro, like, oh, you've dealt with all of these and yet you've managed to be productive in the ways of that.

Then, Creates further barriers to access and unreasonable expectations. And then, too, I do love the more recent scholarship that, you know, still celebrates the flexibility of crip time, but also recognizes that is difficult often. I don't feel like crip time is something that I practice, but it's something that is [00:13:00] imposed on me by my body mind as it interacts and butts to get in a butts against expectations and within the institutions that we that we're in. So, being very self aware of those factors when I'm able to, because part of working and practicing in crip time is also, depending on how you experience your, your body, mind, and spirit, not being aware of your relationship to time till it's too late.

And so the practice of becoming aware. And so just to start that off and throw that out there.

Crystal Yin Lie: I can really relate to a lot of things that you're saying, Anna. So thank you for saying that. So I, I think about this, And I've been thinking about it since I got hired, almost like around three years ago.

So I'm also junior faculty. And so [00:14:00] I've, sort of approach thinking about my writing from like at once like, oh my gosh, I have this job now and I have to produce, produce, produce. Right. And so when Anna, you mentioned like the CV really shows like this sort of, or would present a kind of like normative time, like, Oh look, I'm on paper, like I'm actually look quite productive.

Right. And it tells a very different story of how I actually feel or how I like the truth of what was behind that. I mean, like I started during the pandemic on zoom and my mental health was just in a state that was very non productive in like the academic sense. So I do also feel like this kind of disjointness between how I present myself as an academic and as a professional to my colleagues and then how I feel internally.

And that has always led to this sort of like a feeling of guilt or feeling bad. And I think that's for me, like a lot of crip [00:15:00] time has been, yes, like this enjoyment of like listening to my body mind and what it can't do and what it doesn't want to do right now, but also like working through not feeling bad about it.

And I think that's something that kind of inspired me this semester was I was going through something by a composer, activist named Jerome Ellis. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but he does these really, really interesting, like, music compositions, with working through, like, the temporality of, like, the stutter and thinking about, like, pauses and music as really productive spaces for thinking about, like, feeling intergenerational trauma, or thinking about history, or you know, moments for, like, really productive thinking. And so I was thinking, I started to think about that in relationship to like my relationship to crip time and how I could think of like [00:16:00] these times of not doing anything, not as necessarily like nothing like crip time as pauses in music, which like they're, they aren't empty and productive and bad that I should feel guilty about.

But really necessary for like the song of my life to continue right that like taking time for yourself and not doing anything. Not needing to write or not feeling like you have to write as as this time where you're losing time, but in which it's like it's just part of the score that you know you need to continue.

And so what actually ended up giving me the energy to write was actually straying away from like my primary writing projects and like what I was, like trained to do in my PhD and what I kind of felt bound to right like to keep, you know, Progressing with this scholarly identity, I actually, and that actually caused kind of a big identity, like academic identity crisis for me.

But like I, you know, I just, I [00:17:00] started just leaned into that, like I don't feel good about this, and I'm just giving my time, giving myself time to not write and to write on things that weren't necessarily related to my primary fields ended up giving me like energy to then do the work that I had to, but really kind of just following my joy and like writing about things that I was just reading personally during the pandemic that were kind of keeping me alive was then what really helped. So, anyway. That's all. Sorry. That was kind of tangential, but like, Yeah, I'll pass I'll pass it over to anyone else to respond.

Vyshali Manivannan: Yeah, I, I agree with a lot of what everyone is saying, and I'm probably going to be even more tangential than anyone has been so far. So I'll try to organize it a little bit. I think when I think about crip time in my practice across [00:18:00] writing and teaching and service and all that good stuff. And I'm also junior faculty undergoing a tenure review right now.

I think about it from a race and culture perspective. So, thumbel standard time, which has also been called Sri Lankan standard time, Indian standard time, South Asian standard time, where the joke or the stereotype is that there is always a social delay. You say you're goodbye and then, like, 40 minutes later, you're still saying you're goodbye and how that informed a certain rhythm of life outside of and my father was an academic, too. So I got to see how he was balancing that kind of social rhythm and the demands of academia and the hard sciences. No less. I also think about how when I came to the academic position, I'm in now, Which I think people would say is more theoretically rigorous, quote, unquote, whatever that means from that academic perspective.

I came to it as a creative writer 1st and foremost, from [00:19:00] an MFA where I had done some teaching and it's a very different kind of work and it's a kind of training and a kind of work where productivity is Is not really a demand. It's an expectation of a, of a kind. But it's faith based, I guess, is the way I think of it.

You have faith that it will come to you. Something is there, something is percolating, something will eventually strike you, and the words will happen in a way that works. And sometimes, quite often, actually, it happens in a way that doesn't work and is frustrating and infuriating, and that's all part of the grind.

And I think as creative writers in formal training, as well as in, like, informal settings, you know that and everyone knows that and you, you can accept that, whether or not you identify as disabled. So, for all body mind spirits, the situation is that kind of rhythm of you work at something. You don't work at something you work in [00:20:00] ways that are.

Always not apparent until that final product is their stages of it might be apparent in like a workshop setting, but you're not really quantifying it the same way. And no one really cares about things like word count necessarily. One publication that really hits what you're trying to hit is everything.

But in the creative world, they also, I think for tenure purposes, they quantify your productivity differently. In a way that aligns with that kind of attitude or disposition. So when I came to doctoral work, and then the kind of academic work that follows a PhD, I think I came to it with that creative perspective.

So I call myself a creative critical scholar. And, this is maybe the third organizing concept for me for crip time. Praxis, right? You can talk about your philosophy all day, but until you figure out ways to materially make it work for you, [00:21:00] it's, it feels like just talking. So, I think about strategy a lot.

Especially exploits. Being exploited which I think is That's academia, it's extractive, exploitative labor, but also how I can harness myself, my presentation, my position and my approaches to exploit the university back or to exploit something in a given interaction or in a given set of expectations.

I've been thinking about this a lot as I put together my, or as I was putting together my tenure review materials. How can I do this in a way that I'm going to try and piggyback off of what I remember people saying that does illustrate the things that aren't apparent. Um, the work that's in progress that doesn't usually count for anything.

The stuff that we can't usually measure [00:22:00] because it's not usually made visible where we make the arguments for what counts. And the ways that I can make those arguments for what counts as part of the arc of my visible quantifiable labor, I guess. So, for me, a lot of it looks like as, like, a material practice.

Thoughtful ways of responding to requests, thoughtful ways of responding publicly to requests or demands or expectations, whether that's in a faculty meeting, right, like a faculty council meeting, or more often for me because it feels safer, I have time to like articulate my thoughts on paper where it's I have the email chain or I have the mid tenure materials where my statements. include things like this is my crip time practice, right? This is how I define this and this is how it appears in the, in the arc of my work or [00:23:00] ways that I can make my progress visible to people who I know are not going to understand or who are going to be unintentionally or willfully resistive to the idea of a different form of temporality.

Whether that Is steeped in, like, a, a body minded disability of some kind, or whether that's steeped in trauma or the condition of living under perpetual racist microaggressions or ablest microaggressions, which might include things like. Like blogging or micro blogging where it's like, here is, here's the date where I was doing this drafting.

Here is the public collaborative writing that was going on that turned into the paper later. So if people want quote evidence. Then one of my practices might be to inundate them with evidence. And for me, that doesn't feel like extra time or work because. As someone with chronic pain and fatigue and brain fog frequently.

I'm used to [00:24:00] forgetting everything. So if I don't already record it for myself, I lose it. And so if I'm making public something I'm already doing, it looks like more work to people who don't get it. To me, it's the same amount of work. So I guess those sorts of, like, how do I enact the ways I'm thinking about all of these things, whether it's cultural approaches to time, disabled Crip approaches to time, or exploiting the people who would exploit me.

I guess I don't think that was a complete sentence. I'll stop there. Those are, I guess, my preliminary thoughts.

David Adelman: So, once again, thank you, all of you, for giving such evocative responses. I, the first questions can often be terrifying and anxiety producing, so again, thank you. Very much. Each of you touched on aspects that we will continue to see crop [00:25:00] up throughout the questions, namely issues of what crip time is, who gets to claim crip time, how it is used institutionally and culturally, and thinking about it both, as to use Vyshali's terms as something in the future that is exploitative and that we can exploit. Having said that, I think that the we can easily transition because all of you have pretty much touched on this before, but I think it's important to highlight our next question. What does it mean for you all to write or compose cripply or neuro divergently or in with or through inter intergenerational trauma? How does that shift across body minds and space and time? 

Anna LaQuawn Hinton: I guess I'll start off this time.[00:26:00] 

For me, it means being very much aware that I am keeping a secret from those who are I most directly work with and I'm responsible to. I talk with my students a lot about this. I teach at a public institution. We have primarily 1st generation students. I'm in Texas, but at UNT, you'd be surprised. I'm not actually, but for many, it'd be a surprise about how many black, brown, queer, disabled, neurodivergent students we have.

And, For those who work in the subject areas, it's also not a surprise the tenor of the conversations that we have and the comfort with which students disclose what they're going through in the, and what they [00:27:00] view or what's to be fair experiences obstacles to them working in writing. And I guess the elephant in the room that's invisible to them, but, but definitely for me, it's like the ways that I am too, working through similar issues of ongoing trauma, loss, illness, and wellness. And I've been discussing this with closer colleagues and reflecting on this, but how I think one of the, the greatest just services that we do or to us in the institution is our inability or the climate of knots or the, the lack of space to just talk honestly about the effects.

And I'm especially thinking about, like, questions of intergenerational trauma and ongoing trauma they have on our [00:28:00] productive practices. On the one hand, it is okay to come in and say, you know, what? I have COVID 19, I've been knocked out. I have not been able to work this week. Some people will get annoyed and like, are you sure you can't get there? I'm sure. It's something else altogether to say in ways that it's obviously appropriate for the different relationships I've, I've been triggered. And that has eliminated a minute, an hour, a weekend, everything that we discussed that I would do during that meeting has escaped my brain. And so what I appreciate most about the scholarship that comes out of crip theory and disability studies are those moments, and this is, I think I see this really in Ali Day's work, reckoning honestly with the role that trauma has on our crip time writing practices.

And I [00:29:00] try to facilitate for that for my students, right? And so I'm in the process of trying to facilitate that for myself. And it's something that I'm still thinking through and about, but having that real honest conversation and thinking about what do we need institutionally to acknowledge who we are holistically as people, people, especially the more marginalized, oppressed identities that you have. And, and the, the, the way that exponentially increases your, the likeness that you've encountered trauma and, and what that looks like in our expectations and practices. But I'm also much aware, and this is where I'm thankful for it in terms of some of my other experiences with my body and my mind specifically, I can be very impulsive.

I [00:30:00] say shit out of my mouth. And on the one hand, for a minute, it's like, oh my goodness, you should have thought before saying that, but I do appreciate the ways that that opens up space. So those moments where I get frustrated, I just fly out like, No, I didn't do that because I had a student crying about losing their entire family.

And then the ways we have to pause and that real that aspect and emotionality back, but also thinking I've been thinking about the kind of space and opportunities that that kind of really radical vulnerability. Opens up. And then making space for different forms of practice and writing. So, just some of those thoughts on that question.

Vyshali Manivannan: I can. Oh, go ahead. Good. Oh, I can, I can piggyback off that. I think. So I think I, I take a similar approach and maybe also a different, totally different approach also informed by my creative origins, I guess I really [00:31:00] hate this division, but, you know, it exists. So, from my MFA training to my P. H. D. training. Maybe content warning here for genocide references. So, as an alum from Sri Lanka, I kind of grew up in the shadow of the ethnic conflict that was there, which culminated in genocide in 2009. I remember where I like flashes during those weeks in 2009 and possibly the, you know, the whole year 2008 2009 and it really made me rethink.

I was an adjunct at the time. It made me rethink teaching or university administration. So, from the top down to me, how I was interacting with my students, because I have never been so filterless, especially at that time in the classroom and it made me think a lot about the kinds of writing that I was doing and why I was doing that writing.

So, I was functioning as a creative writer, quote unquote, and independent scholar. And the kinds of [00:32:00] scholarship I was writing was, I guess, what we would call conventional, traditional, 12 point font, Times New Roman, one inch margins, no white space, right? Like, headings or subheadings if needed. Voiceless, right?

That kind of sanitized of any bodily presence. And it was already so different from the kinds of work that I did. Creatively where the body is always there. And, you know, that the body's the instrument. The mind is the instrument. The spirit is present. And it stopped making sense to me that divide and then I think, I actually credit.

Remi a lot with my with beginning to crystallize my philosophy, because I, I think it was at a computers and writing conference. We talked about disclosure and since so much of my work was already centering on my own conditions as an auto ethnographer and creative writer. What the hell, right? Like, they're gonna know anyway.

So I just started disclosing left and right. Right up front, didn't matter, no explanation. If people wanted, they could ask. [00:33:00] People can look it up, like, these, their Google exists. And it also freed me up to write differently, not just in terms of content, but in terms of how I was presenting that content.

And, When I think about composing crippling or neurodivergent layer with trauma, it's sort of expected or accepted in creative spaces that fragments and trauma go hand in hand on the way that we live a fractured life and the same is true of multiple kinds of disabilities. You put the two things together and everything's this kind of blurry, fragmented, chaotic mess mostly, or at times, and you just sort of, you live it, right? You accept it, you live it, you work in it. And it just became so much easier to not have to fight to make that chaos look like something that was comprehensible to people who never understood that chaos is in order as well. 

So, I had [00:34:00] been writing lyric as a creative non fiction writer. I transposed lyric into my critical work. And I just began refining that. And I began fighting with editors and reviewers about it. And I began choosing only the places where I knew reviewers and editor, or not reviewers, but editors, would have my back. With the kinds of work that I was doing, if I said that I needed the footnotes, if I said I needed the white space, if I needed the particular symbols, they were going to have my back.

Right. And then that's actually, I think a harder battle than things like code meshing, which are more accepted in, at least, well, not like fully accepted, but a little more mainstream and rhetoric spaces. Then I have completely exploded the form and I don't want to spoonfeed you an argument. So if you want the argument, the same way that we are either trained or we just are, we habituate a way of reading literature.

This is the kind of poetic work I'm giving you to understand what I'm trying to tell you here. [00:35:00] And then I progress from that into, I guess, game design and game writing and digital texts and things just get more messy and chaotic. And require active participation on the part of the reader, which I don't think is that different from the way we approach again, like, the literary with this, like, arbitrary division between the two.

And then I became more productive. Right? So from that, like. Practical way of enacting something if I'm more productive on paper, it also looks better because I have more lines at that point. And once I had, you know, put my own oxygen mask on, I could then do it for my students. So, once I knew how to do it myself and how to make it do the kinds of skills that we want to teach in a classroom I could allow that option for students who wanted it. And I have a number of students who take it. And so I guess that's how I did it for myself. Right? And you title it in a way that sounds [00:36:00] rigorous and administrators looking at your CV.

They don't know the difference. And if they need to know the difference, then I just need to rationalize it. Students get to explore and experiment and discover and it's mostly a win win. So I guess that's what it means to me.

Nirmala Erevelles: Okay, I'll follow up with what the last, with what both Anna and Vyshali was talking about. We're talking about because I see, like, I echo a lot of what they were saying. And one of the things I wanted to introduce into this conversation, like, supporting whatever they were saying, was this issue of shame.

Because shame in so many ways, Whether we want to admit it or not, haunts the time, haunts us when we are trying to go through these notions of negotiating crip time, particularly in, in fields, which are maybe, which do not allow this to happen. I teach both nurse [00:37:00] educators where it is really scary because they don't understand any kind of flexibility because they have been trained in a field that says, You cannot require flexibility or else you're going to kill someone.

So they even translate that into classroom practices and also an education because I teach in college in a college of education, where both my students and I at different times. Have experienced this notion of shame when we've not been able to meet the demands of the academy of faculty of our colleagues, especially in this brave new world of how many are and this I'm speaking to both graduate students, as well as junior assistant professors. How many articles are you going to be able to produce? And if you don't, why can't you compete with the folks that are just like you? And part of the reason I wanted to bring this notion, because I also saw one of the questions there was, what is this notion of somebody was asking [00:38:00] one of the, the questions in the Q& A is what is crip time? 

crip time, to give you a quick and easy explanation without, without being pedantic, it's really understanding how our body minds negotiate within a social context that includes time and space. But to also recognize this happens, and this is where I want to bring a political economy, within an that sees all these negotiations, except for those who are Who have that kind of economic power sees these negotiations as part of being of, of, of, of ways of being, constituted as commodities from whom we have to exact as much extract as much profit from.

So, one of the ways, and so the failures of not being able to do it is this issue of shame. So I've had to learn [00:39:00] and that's been my struggle the last few years. Also, I wanted to add to it, I've also been a single parent, and I want to add this context of care that comes into these logics. For those of us who provide care, at one point, I was caring for my daughter and our family who had gone through a lot of emotional trauma.

We had a lot of loss, with some of it more painful than others. And, and at the same time I was caring for my elderly mother who was living with me. For 5 years, and there was no space within the context of productivity to allow your, your, if you're fine, but what the costs are, what, what is the ways in which your own body mind, because it is so connected to people that you love and care for that also gets implicated in the ways you negotiate time and space.

And, [00:40:00] and so one of the things that I learned and I think both of y'all said it in different ways of whether one was first to acknowledge it. So I, I think why Vyshali talked about the oxygen mask. So one was acknowledging it and figuring out in figure figuring out ways in which I could just sit. It was okay to sometimes I needed to just sit with okay what I was going through, sit with the emotions. I needed a space before I tended to all the other things that were required of me, one. And, and, and then to also then of course mention it and share with my students, because a lot of my students, even junior faculty, but a lot of my, my students somehow magically think that those of us who become full professors made it through just shining through those ranks.

They don't understand. They have not for, for them and, and, and they, and they also compare themselves and see themselves as not doing, [00:41:00] not being adequately able to do this. So I've, I've shared, we've negotiated, we've had conversations. And then the third part, which actually I'll be doing one of those aspects today, is to advocate really strongly and, and educate the rest of our faculty.

Today, this afternoon, I have to write a letter. To ask why one of my students who's quote, unquote timed out of the doctoral program. Because she had a diagnosis of and has been trying to negotiate it for several years. I'm going to have to, I kind of like, ironically, I wasn't planning it, but I will be using definitions of what we were talking about today about crip time when I write to the graduate dean about how they would need to understand time for the student in a way that's radically different from the way we have these kinds of, you know, closures.

So, it means that we have to be able to write about it without having to [00:42:00] also sound apologetic. Or to kind of reproduce notions of shame that are so in we've learned it's so naturalized sometimes for us that I have to stop myself that even though I've been doing this work for so many years, it seems sometimes so natural that our first instinct is to fall into shame and apology, rather than to move into a space of education and advocacy, which is a very different kind of space. 

Crystal Yin Lie: So thanks, Nirmala. Yeah. And everyone, I, I feel so much of what has been said, like so hard. And I just want to say, first of all, that I think this is a really wonderful question and it makes me really happy to be in a space, um, that asks question like this. So thanks. , so without, well, yeah, I think I. I don't want to repeat too much of what's been [00:43:00] said, because I, I can relate to a lot of it but I think what I will say is personally for me I think that composing crippling, and for me means composing in a way that is most protective of my energy, and it is like not forcing myself to produce in forms that don't work for me. And that has been, you know, especially hard because I am junior faculty and I am expected to produce like three articles or a monograph in an article. Right. And, I feel like in the last couple of years I have sort of realized or come to terms with the fact that, you know, the way that I live and the body mind that I live with isn't suited to the demands of producing a monograph.

Like it's just not. And, you know, the monograph is still seen as like the measure of being a successful scholar, right? And so, when Nirmala like brings up this, the, the term shame, right? Like I, that's something that I've grappled with quite a lot in deciding to not produce a monograph. You know, because I think like, oh, I, I went to grad school, I got a [00:44:00] PhD, I wrote my dissertation and I can't even write the book like I said I was going to and that you know my colleagues are expecting of me and like giving that up, you know, did at one point feel really bad, but I think that me being true to myself and saying like this is not.

My brain is not going to be able to handle this. I just can't do that. And that is okay. And I think, so that has been sort of the way that I've been thinking about this question and kind of, you know, thinking about what it means to be a successful or not a successful but like a fulfilled scholar. Right. Even though I don't think sort of my focus is suited to a long term book project, which requires degree of coherency that I just don't think I can sustain over a long period of time. So, yeah, so I'm thinking about like, well, how can I compose in different ways, right, that are more suited to [00:45:00] who I am, and to then not feel ashamed about casting off the book project, right? And so I've been thinking about that personally and also, you know, through working with my students as well. My students have a lot to teach me and so, I just don't want my students to have sort of like the same, like struggles with that because I know that they are, right?

They'll feel like, oh, I can't write. An eight page essay, I feel inadequate. Right. And it's like, you know, not, we're not all suited to write an eight page essay in like this normative format. Right. And I have a lot of colleagues that, you know, in, in meetings have expressed, like, with the pandemic, my students are doing so well at writing essays and, you know, And we get into these sort of conversations about like, well, like, have you ever thought about changing your assignments to make them more accessible for students and you know your experiences, you're having students that [00:46:00] aren't like you know it's performing like focus in these kind of ways that you're used to pre pandemic right and so I really tried to then in my classes, think through like how can I do away with conventional essays that I grew up doing or pop quizzes and exams you know like these normative measures of so called mastery, I think have instilled a lot of unhelpful things in me, like growing up as a student and as a graduate student that I still carry with me and that I've been trying to cast off and shed.

And so I'm really trying to encourage my students to interrogate. These forms of assessments. Right. And I try not to have them in my class or I asked them to be sort of hyper critical of them in my class. And so we're thinking about different sorts of assignments and creative activities, and I just want them.

Just as I would want myself to question about, [00:47:00] question sort of what is a proper way to communicate something or in an acceptable form, right? Does it look like an essay? Does it look like a monograph? And, yeah. So I think that also builds on that. dovetails a bit into the next question about producing a thing.

So, I'll just leave that there. 

David Adelman: No, excellent. Thank you all again. And you took the words right out of my mouth. You're the excellent lynchpin to this. So, and this will be our last question last sort of scripted question and then we can transition into a broader discussion because I've seen some questions come up in the chat.

But on that sort of lovely preface that Crystal just gave us, the last question we have is how might we think about crip time in ways that resist narratives of overcoming and or narratives of producing a thing, whether that means more traditional scholarly research and [00:48:00] production or whether that means within a larger calculus of making and doing on crip time.

Nirmala Erevelles: Okay, I can start on this one and maybe just say a few things. I think so much of the narrative in higher education is about this, about overcoming and productivity. And that's why I remember when I said that it doesn't, you don't have to identify as A disabled person or any of the things for you to be able to not like for for for for people not to be able to engage with this issue of time.

In some ways, I have because my my daughter also went to a title 1 title 1 school meeting a school where majority of the students are [00:49:00] have unfree and reduced lunch. It's interesting that many of the majority of the classes are quote unquote in educational terms, even though they may not have a formal diagnosis or formal label of or any kind of identification with, with official anything that has to related to disability, many of them are read as unproductive citizens and communities. But we don't read about the, they don't score high, quote unquote high on the test, they, many of them don't make it to college, and many of them don't actually play out in these narratives. I'm not even able to participate in this kind of critical discussion that we're having.

So I wanted to name that as a critical space, because we don't read the narratives of, remember I mentioned being a single parent, we don't read narratives of particular kinds of labor that both young people and adults. Who come from from working from working class backgrounds [00:50:00] who are in particular kinds of gendered roles.

In in in certain ways in which we are supposed to shed all our quote unquote baggage before we make it to do school, whether school is K to 12 settings or higher educational settings. So, one of the understandings that we would really need to do in all all kinds of our work is to really challenge narratives that render these kinds of labors invisible. One, two, to be able to have a conversation of once we make them visible to also make an argument about how, in many ways, we can reconfigure this notion of what it means to be. And I'm putting that in quotes because that's another language that's used successful within context that part of the shame comes from being always regarded as not being able to, but then there are also real material repercussions. And that's one of the [00:51:00] things I want us to recognize, like a majority of my daughter's classmates have not made it to college. Because they couldn't prove that and I'm not saying college is the only option, but it is a way of erasure and it gets more complicated because the majority of them students of color.

Many of them, because of not being able to make it have been labeled bad students and there's that whole narrative of the school to prison pipeline. So there's even more dangers. They don't just it's not that they just get excluded. They also get them find themselves. In spaces that are so well, I mean, that are very much like the prison industrial complex, even though they're not in places of work in their everyday lives so that we really have to understand crip time in a space that's over and above overcoming.

Also over and and related to the different ways in which we can think about producing the thing. How do we producing a thing? How are the [00:52:00] so maybe like, I really want us to think critically. I'm not going to be able to answer that right now. But for us, maybe to productively think about. Ways in which we can reorganize and some of us were talking about it in terms of our pedagogies and advocacy about ways in which we can start the conversation about thinking of narratives of context so that when we understand how body minds negotiate in context and space and time, then perhaps we may be able to produce alternative narratives Of also thinking of this work, and that was the other thing we talk about overcoming.

I also want to introduce this idea of the collective. I don't think we can survive without working collectively. And so when we are thinking of teaching the things of thinking of ways in which we get tenure, the thinking of ways in which we think, how do we produce narratives of collectivity that also respect different people's [00:53:00] ways in which they negotiate with time and space very much. And you need to think of it, I know it's a higher ed context. Many of you are here, but I think we need to think of it as much as as it is in K to 12 context, particularly in the high schools and also within community colleges and colleges before we can actually understand how those things actually constitute subjects.

That have life experiences that shut themselves down because of a very problematic definitions of time and what is associated.

Anna LaQuawn Hinton: Thank you so much for that. Oh, my gosh, what you shared is so meaningful. Just I thought it was just. Important to state that and think about our priorities and then the work that we do. And also in the ways [00:54:00] that it's important to bring those narratives in, because that is how we disrupt those those narratives of overcoming.

So, as my way of connection, I was that student in those Title I schools that that have been divested from and because of the particularities of my body, mind, spirit was almost Written off and for a constellation of factors that I don't even fully comprehend as much as I try to have been plucked out of that timeline.

And I'm here where I am today, but the ways that I intentionally try to and sometimes unintentionally, like I said, I go off at the mouth. Sometimes I don't, and that's just part of it, disrupt that narrative of reckoning with where I am today with where I know I could have been or so many people are is by and I love that you use this term [00:55:00] earlier in one of your responses, disclosure.

To say the thing that we're often afraid to say, be out of shame. No, this was not by some magical, I'm not here because I somehow worked harder or better or smarter. To say the thing that makes us uncomfortable to say that I was just functional enough to to escape let's say juvenile versus the hospital to in meetings to say.

That to acknowledge that for instance, y'all want me to produce a thing, but I'm also very much aware of the fact that I am the thing for these institutions. I'm the product. Especially in the tenuous spaces of DEI and calling what it is, and how, how it's frightening because of shame, because in many ways you threaten to recall all the narratives of [00:56:00] tokenism and adequacy by calling that out.

But, The ways that it makes other people uncomfortable, but to create spaces and to use our writing and our voice, and these other narratives as a way to force people to sit in that discomfort. And I think that that's, I love that. I don't love, I think it's very generative that guilt and shame came up in these conversations because I've, what I have been reckoning with and I'm learning to lean into in the spaces where I do because often of tokenism or the ridiculous expectations of labor that they have on black women and women of color, you end up in these spaces and it's like, okay, y'all not going to listen to me, but this is what it is to, to, to be that voice of discomfort and call it in, in, in a, in a kind of honesty that yeah does make an already precarious position more precarious. I often [00:57:00] wonder, I'm like, girl, you're going to say the wrong thing one more time. But, It's only through these radical disruptions and disclosures. I think that we, we can start to create spaces where we can have more honest narratives and more robust and why and different conversations and start to think about what frameworks do we need in order to enact the change that we need to see and many and much of what you're, you've brought up the model. 

So to reiterate in ways, this may be in a way that is a bit more clear. I think to be honest about what it is to experience, how it is to experience crip time, the multiple experiences of crip time to be really honest and forthright in ways that. In this case is not accommodating to the language that institutions want to hear.

I'm not going to say it softly, politely. I'm not going to couch or cushion it or sugar coat [00:58:00] it. The, the realities, or at least as that reality is clear to us in any given moment of. The various ways that we're navigating power and these systems are not navigating it.

And to also really acknowledge the ways that we do exploit people, not just for labor, but for who they are in these settings. And, so yeah, just to have really honest, uncomfortable conversations that also puts, places the burden of shame on those or the systems that have that power, not just those who are stuck within them.

Vyshali Manivannan: Absolutely. I was just trying to formulate something like that in my head. I think you said it beautifully, right? Putting the burden of shame on those who would shame us or those who are placing the burden or the expectations on us. I think a lot [00:59:00] about affect management when I think about the exploit.

And I think all of that is linked to the ways everyone's talking so far about resisting these narratives of what we're coming of. Producing and not just producing a thing, but, like, producing a very specific kind of thing. I was noticing some of the, the questions in the Q and A , seem to be about that, right?

Like, we're expected to produce very certain kinds of work, countable work, right? The kinds of work that demonstrates clarity and coherence of purpose and coherence of thought and looks like one person wrote, in one sitting. And it's seamless, and this is really not the kind of work that's easy. I don't think it's easy to produce anyway, but it's definitely not easy to produce when you have other , disruptions or constraints, whether they're bodily, mental, cognitive, emotional, spiritual, constantly impeding your, your own [01:00:00] way of moving forward temporally, spatially, or with certain kinds of content. And when that content is also difficult, which I think about a lot, because I write about the things I live and the things I live aren't easy. And they put you in a space where it becomes even harder to write those things, let alone in a format that looks like producing a thing, and then whatever thing you produce, whether it's because of the content or the obstacles you face to get there, it inevitably becomes overcoming, right? Like, supercrip, I have written a thing, and I am the only one who could have written this thing, as though it's so unimaginable, right?

So I really like, this sounds weird to say maybe, I really like making people Uncomfortable people who view me like that uncomfortable because I should not be the uncomfortable person in the room. I should be reminding people that there is a reason and they need to [01:01:00] look at themselves deeply that they feel uncomfortable that I am in the room and that I am breathing and taking up space in their room.

Right. This is my room too. And I think I always I haven't said this yet. So I think I'll say it now. I don't think I have a ton of privilege. I check off a lot of those multiply marginalized boxes. I am not professionally secure. There are all kinds of reasons for that ranging from, not being able to pass as like a dominant position or identity, having a non apparent disability that makes people assume wrong things about me and then suddenly it appears and they're like, oh my god, what happened to you? And then also, Trauma, intergenerational trauma, and which is already poorly understood from a mainstream perspective. And the various genocides that revive that in me, like, right now with Palestine, which is its own whole [01:02:00] messy professional problem that a number of people are facing in academia. 

So I think it's always I think it's always about choosing your battles and choosing the things that you can literally live with, as in keep your salary, keep your insurance plan, et cetera. Know who your allies are if someone needs to go to bat for you, but then also all of this is still a risk.

It always feels like a risk. I think I'm my most privileged today because I do have allies professionally in my department with me for, like, the 1st time in a full time teaching position, to maybe address something. I think I saw in the Q and A I had allies in my doctoral program as well and I only needed one right?

I just need one person to really go to bat for me who is in a position of power and who is like, ideally a white straight man, or at least appears that way. Right? And has been there for a long time. That's what I, I need. So I have those things, but it's still a risk. Right? [01:03:00] So I do feel that pressure, but at the same time, I feel like if no one else is saying it, it gets to a point where it's like, if I'm now in a position to say, or do something, then if we don't, as we've been saying, I think if we don't disclose, or we don't publicize these things, or we don't put other people in a position where they need to think about it and ideally to think about it in the language that we provide for them through, like, you know, strategically deploying rhetoric or affect management or what have you, then the narrative of overcoming and producing certain types of work prevails. 

I think in my bio, there was a reference to the special issues that I co edited. And the kinds of work we took on purpose were the kinds of work that nobody wanted. So we asked, and this was like, at the height of the pandemic.

We figured that caregivers and disabled folks and other people who just couldn't write for so many real reasons needed a CV line. So we were like, you want a CV [01:04:00] line? We'll give you a CV line. So here is a reputable publication. Give us your chaotic, messy unfinished hot mess.com of work, and we'll take it.

Right as long as it fits are very broad theme care work writing cobit bam. And we did right and we were flooded with work, which I think says something. Flooded. It was a 1 part issue that turned into 2 because we had over 150 submissions for reasons because that's the kind of work that we are producing as part of our daily life that we aren't making visible.

But that is writing and arguments can be made in the creative field that it is writing and is accepted as writing in those areas. So to bring it back to, like, the practical strategy part, I think, especially for people who are junior scholars, like me, and like, many of us and grad students, because I very recently was in that struggle.

You [01:05:00] just need evidence that someone else has done it, right? I mean, you need to form your own argument for your own work, but I think the more evidence you compile that this has been done, and other people have articulated this, and you are now just Joining the new, what's, what's the language we use? Turn.

There's a turn happening in whatever field you're in and here it is, right? And so and so and so and so has done this. I think that goes a long way and that's how I pushed my dissertation work through, which was not unheard of in, in my department at that time. And it's how I'm pushing my knock on wood, fingers crossed, my tenure review stuff, my mid tenure review stuff through.

But I think to admin it looks like something, right? So it looks like something to them that fits their traditional mold. But for us, it is, I think, pushing the boundary of what production is, or should be in academia and what it can include and what it maybe should include. [01:06:00] So, to that end, and I'm sure we cited people, but I can't remember.

I know my co editors and I, we wrote, like, a mini manifesto to just put it out there as, like, public published material that people could cite. Here's why we need to do this. So, I think, disclosing in ways that are let's do what I want, like, create spaces. Right. Just create emotional safe spaces for people to talk and think and collaborate.

I think that's super important and one half of it and then the other half of it is making or finding the things or doing both that publicly declare that it exists. Why it should exist and, like, make space in a way that is legible to admin or, you know, deans or chairs or whoever would resist it. Otherwise so they have less and less room to speak from when they try to denigrate it. [01:07:00] I think I don't even remember where I started, but I think that was maybe all of it.

David Adelman: So, I think that that is both a lovely wrap up of a lot of the things that have, we have been discussing thus far, and we also have a variety of questions, some of which have already been touched upon, and answered in the Q& A. So, the, I'm just, apologies, I'm just reading through as they have popped up.

And so the functional way. To begin, not to use the language of productivity, is [01:08:00] that, I think we might speak a little bit more about, because there have been multiple questions about how to find support as a grad student and as an early career faculty member. And so, I am just curious if anyone would like to expand on those thoughts at all or, or propose another space to move into.

As this has been a very vivifying conversation and I just want to thank you again.

Anna LaQuawn Hinton: Finding support is so difficult, but so important. I know for me, it looks like recognizing that I need different kinds of support. Once again, I love what you said, [01:09:00] Vyshali, you take in terms of institutions. If you can find 1 person with a little smidgen of power, and finesse that if it's a relationship that you have to finesse, if it's not organic, and understand that you do sometimes have to finesse, there's that.

But I am working on, as well, mid career I'm junior faculty and what's interesting about the kind of work that I do, that we do in these spaces, in many ways, and this has been said before, it's nothing new, we're both hyper visible and invisible. Hyper visible in ways, like I said, in many ways, I recognize that I am the product, like, Ooh, very much calling for not, Ooh, look, it's a Negro in the classroom, right?

We've done our work, but invisible in the sense that there's no true curiosity or engagement, the kind of work that we're doing. So I love that kind of I almost want to say guerrilla publishing project that you [01:10:00] that you put on right? Like, we know we need a line and they're not going to come read this because power and an angering disinterest in the very necessary work that we do.

Right? And psychically, it can be really demoralizing to be both hyper visible in that sense. But also very much invisible and so finding networks outside, I, much of my professional identity, I craft and other organizations where I choose to dedicate my work and it does sometimes be resistance.

They're like, why are you doing this service for this organization? Because they actually give a shit about what I do. So recognizing that I need multiple forms of support there's that institutional support and finding at least that one person with some power [01:11:00] because what I knew, but even what I'm coming to be reminded of, that even if you do everything by the book, there are gonna be people who are intentionally going to not understand, not, not acknowledge, not count the work that you do.

So you're going to need that no matter how much you put your head down and achieve and overachieve. But then also finding those sources, whether it be through our online and sometimes even those parasocial. I know there's a lot of critique of parasocial, especially in terms of celebrity. But I think in terms of like, those who are in our communities, like, For instance, I've adored Nirmala's work forever and like, we're on social media. We haven't met fully face to face it. I think we did finally, but it wasn't like a chance, but like, that sense of being invested in her well, being from this distance and knowing that there's others, even just in most platforms that are best in [01:12:00] mind through my service work, I find that to be really useful and taking those opportunities to just kind of build that up. But I think that's also another one of those conversations where we have to dismantle this overcoming narrative. 

Like, yeah, I just went out and I network and I just found groups of supportive people because it's just. Even that's not that doesn't ring true. These spaces, they are in many ways, isolating and can be in ways that manufacture loneliness and aloneness. And whether you identify disabled or not, I think, in our current state of the world, we don't always have the energy to invest towards the kind of labor it takes on building connections. And so that's a really complicated and muddled answer to that question, but on the one hand, You [01:13:00] know, when you do have the energy and the ability nurturing multiple forms of support in different locations.

But then also acknowledging that that's, that's, that's just difficult work. And despite our best efforts, it might not happen or happen perfectly. And then also, like, Having realistic expectations, I think one of the benefits that I have coming in from the background that I had, no one told me, like, oh, my gosh, you're so brilliant. You need to go to grad school and be a professor. I didn't even know what the professor was when I was in undergrad and started to make this decision. And so I had no expectation that I would be welcomed into these spaces. Like, you know, it's kind of like around the call, like, oh, we weren't meant to be here.

But I think for some people, there really is this belief, like, yeah, we wanted to be here, but I know they kind of want me here. And so I'm frustrated when I'm not embraced here. I'm like, nah, I really, I had no expectation of being here. I don't know how long this is going to last. And [01:14:00] yeah, just being really realistic about expectations and what that looks like as well. I hope that helps.

Nirmala Erevelles: I was just going to add to that. I mean, not add to it. Like, I really, I really appreciated everyone on this panel, the same or some of these things that, Like laughing like but that's why I also call it collective, like I've already put notes in my head about what's going to be in that letter I'm going to be writing this afternoon to support a student but the important.

The other thing that we really. So, yes, like finding the allies that's the hardest one and I think maybe. Maybe , trying to, like, I would always say for everyone to find your allies. So that's the one thing, but the second, [01:15:00] and then also like, like, like how your, your name did the gorilla kind of way of getting people to be part of the discourse, but also this is something now for our field and for academia that I think we should also resist and I'm going to put this here, this kind of like celebrity status within our field I think we need to understand that we need to spend a lot of our time Especially those of us who made it. 

So maybe I'm speaking to myself as one of the senior faculty in this context. To spend a lot of time opening up spaces so that it is like so that we can we can actually show some of the collective work that is done in the field, like in my, like, I think I've now made it a point that in any syllabi that I use that deals with disability.

I always want to engage new scholars work in there as required reading, because then they get cited and citational practices help. But I think we also need to find ways [01:16:00] to connect our work with and bring people into these spaces, because one of the ways to work with crip time is to work as collectives.

But so much as we've been saying it all along, so much of academia requires, like, even the dissertation has, like, we don't, can't imagine, the dissertation has to be individual work. You will not get tenure in our, in our field. We have to put the percentage of contribution if you write a collective article.

I mean, it's ridiculous, like, it's absolutely ridiculous. So I've just opted, like, if I'm writing with a junior scholar, I'm like, Put me second. It doesn't matter where we're not going to negotiate. Let's see what it's going to do with somebody in some space. So I think there are there are ways in which we need to be creative.

And that's why I also love the journal. If you're the co, if you're the editor of a journal, figure out ways to get people's work that challenges the [01:17:00] dominant things. You know, these are the kinds of strategies that I think we also have to help our graduate students not get socialized into these narratives and to be creative about doing these things.

So we may need more sessions like this. We may need more training whenever they do training for young professors. They're very much giving you the language of anti crip time and that we definitely need alternative kinds of trainings so that we can offer different ways because you also want your colleagues.

I want all of you to be part of the academy so that we can transform it. If we are not there, we also are not going to be there. So to find the ways in which we can do it in ways that we can stay in those spaces. And I also wanted to say sometimes trying to All these things doesn't always become successful.

[01:18:00] I work really hard sometimes and I could fail. There's also that we've talked a lot about the art of failure. What failure means is, in this context, it opened a space. It opened, it's, it's going to probably open a space and we have to come back, reconstruct. And figure out an alternative more effective when I say effective in a different way to do it.

Crystal Yin Lie: I'll just add really briefly, you know, since we're talking about finding support that out of all of the fields and subfields that I've been a part of, the disability studies community, like, has always been the most open and, like, generous. And, you know, it has, like, it's been hard for me to find support at, you know, my own institution at times, you know, because the, the, the conventional answer would be like, seek support from, like, your chair or your, you know, your dean, blah, blah, blah.

But that's not, you know. You're not always going to [01:19:00] find support there. But, you know, I reached out to someone who I had met at like my first disability studies conference like over a decade ago, you know, and this person wrote back and now we're working together on an edited collection, you know, and it's just like, this person also welcomed me to the conference when I was just a tiny little baby ds so long ago right and so that's just really, I don't know spoke spoke really loudly to just how thankful I am to be within this space and so, you know, should you be seeking support. Don't hesitate to reach out to anyone, you know, even if you might find them intimidating, which is something, you know, Nirmala mentioned like a needing to just kind of push back against this like superstar status in our fields, right?

It's like we're all human beings and we all, you know, [01:20:00] um, have everyone's like best interest in mind and I also really appreciated what Anna said about it is hard work to network and it is really challenging and especially like it's just so It's hard for me because I'm like an incredibly anxious person as well and I like don't find that to be like natural.

And so just like, but, but just know like if, yeah, if you do choose to reach out, it will be returned. And, I'm really confident that like this is one of the most supportive spaces out there in academia, for which I am so grateful for. So.

Remi Yergeau: Thank you all. This is Remi speaking and I'm, I'm so sorry to interject in this, Just amazing capacious conversation. I want to be mindful of your time and we are now at 1:32. And so I just want to thank our speakers for their [01:21:00] generosity for for Okay. Taking the time to share and think through all of these really important questions with us and apologies to those who we had such a wide ranging discussion in the in the comments and the question.

So I know we didn't get to everything. But Crystal, Nirmala, Anna and Vi, if you haven't seen the Q& A, I just encourage you to take a look there. So with that, I'm just going to quickly share a thank you screen in the background here that has the contact information for the DISCO Network, which includes disconetwork. org is the URL. And, if we could just give a virtual round of applause, flat applause for our speakers today. So, so much appreciated.

I'm going to pause our screen share [01:22:00] and then I believe Giselle, you might be the person who is able to stop our recording.